drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  68

  2008 Feb 15 - Study Edition PDF

  by AlphaOmega in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here it is : feb 15 2008 study edition.

  http://files-upload.com/files/671272/2008-02-15%20watchtower%20study%20edition%20ocr.pdf.

  with many thanks again to fokyc for the scans.

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  drew sagan

  Thanks so much!
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  10

  Pentecostals - your views?

  by digderidoo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have been considering attending a meeting at a local pentecostal church and wondered if anyone has any experience of them and would appreciate peoples views.. the only thing that is stopping me attending is the thought of it being another religion.

  you know growing up be told 'false religion' is bad and all that.. yours paul.

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  drew sagan

  It's very simliar to the charismatic movement. It's main focus is on a direct personal expierance with God through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (as seen in the story of pentecost in the NT). There are many variations.
  
  I have had a few experiences with Pentecostalism, mostly before I became JW. I found it to be an atmosphere which readily encouraged credulity, among other things.
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  65

  Feb 15th Watchtower Study Edition - NEW LIGHT - Article in PDF

  by AlphaOmega in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the generation seeing the sign .

  ' previously, this journal has explained that in the first century, "this generation" mentioned at matthew 24:34 meant "the contemporaneous generation of unbelieving jews.

  not the whole magazine, but this is the new light article.. .

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  drew sagan

  2008-?
  The "generation" applys exclusively to the remnant
  Time period of "generation" Start:1914 or any time thereafter . End: great tribulation (big A)

  
  I think there is an important point to remember about this. Usually when we thought about 'this generation' when it comes to Watchtower thinking our minds become fixated on the generation of 1914. This is because in order for 'old light' to work we where looking at the last possible generation that could have been alive in 1914.
  
  But this new light makes it much differant. The key question is "when did the generation of the second fulfillment begin?". Remember that now the criteria is simply that it is the "anointed" who discern the presence after 1914. That means that the "generation" started much sooner that 1914. Anybody born in the 1800's who lived through 1914 is game.
  
  The answer to this is totally up for grabs, but let us do some very conservative estimates. Let us say a man born in 1850 joined the Russelite movement, lived through 1914 at the age of 64 and untill the year of his death (lets say 1934) "discerned christs presence".
  
  This means that the generation streatched much farther back. There may have been people who where even older than the example I have given. If my estimate is at all a basic idea of what could be assumed we would be looking at "this generation" spaning a time frame from over 157 years!
  
  Is 157 years "excessively long" as the magazine puts it?
  
  Another question. When did the generation of the first fulfillment "pass away"?
  The end of the generation of the first fulfillment and the beginning of the generation of the second fulfillment seem to be some of the biggest holes in this mess of a theology IMO. (there are many others, but I find these two striking)
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  49

  CRIPES!!! The PO and CO saw my Chrismas Tree

  by bluesapphire in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  wonderful!

  my husband decides not to decorate the house since my stupid sister asked the co of her congregation to call on us and he's been coming by on a casual basis.. well the co is in town so my husband says, "i'm not doing the house.

  only the inside.

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  drew sagan

  Or we may just not go...

  If you do not go to a meeting the ask you to attend they will go ahead with out you, most likely deciding to df both of you.

  I think you have a pretty good defense with lots of options.

  My guess is that they will send two Elders to your house next time in order to get the 'two witness' rule on you. They will come just to ask some questions and get some feedback from you. That's my guess.
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  22

  The human mind-no one is a coward

  by dawg in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  many of you will be happy to hear that this is my departure from this forum for awhile... i need to wean myself off it, get in shape and record my album... i'll post a link when it comes out.

  that said, merry christmas and happy new year to you all.

  i've had fun here on this site, almost all of you to a person are intelligent and well meaning.... i remember as a youth, i was a hard core jw, mostly becasue i thought i was doing what was right; as time went on and things didn't add up, i started doing as the bible tells me to do in 1 thess.

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  drew sagan

  Glad to know you're finding ways to move on. Enjoy yourself and stop back when you can.

  -Drew
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  20

  Just finished C of C last night

  by dogisgod in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  it took me a while to get thru this book and some of the print was really unclear to make out.

  what struck me was the absolute mean spiritedness of the borg toward these brothers who gave their whole lives to the borg.

  it also reinforces my experience that once they "make a decision" they will not be disuaded by biblical facts.

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  drew sagan

  What a great book it is. It reallly changed my perspecitve on things.

  I still have many translations in the library but which one do you use?

  I would suggest the original Jerusalem Bible, copywright 1966. While considered "too liberal" by some (mainly by those who prescribe to the idea of literal Bible interpretation) it's well reserached and a great tool for study IMO.
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  49

  Standish Arms Sold by WTS, 5 other buildings on the market

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  5 other buildings remain on the market.

  by linda collins.

  brooklyn daily eagle.

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  drew sagan

  So how many buildings do they have left up in Brooklyn? It seems as though they may acutaly leave Brooklyn for good, or at least have a very small facility left when all is said and done.
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  46

  Would YOU Be Concerned If The Next President Was A Mormon, Or.....

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  or for that matter, if a candidate didn't believe in god or belonged to a sect or was a believer in islam.....would you be leery?

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  drew sagan

  If Mitt Romney ever did become president (which I highly doubt he will) I do not think he ever would start making decisions and policies specifially based upon his beliefs in the mormon church (outside of the principles embraced by the christian right which i'm sure he would pander to). All eyes would be watching him in this regard and it would political suicide for him to start making decisions based on his specific Mormon beliefs. The press would just eat him alive for it and I think public approval would be in the tank IMO.

  That said, it isn't fun to think that an American president would actually be part of a religious institution that pratices shunning. But imo his mormon experience seems to be far removed from the norm because of his public life.
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  8

  The Gospel and JW

  by My Struggle in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  over the past month i have been helping out at a church on a discipleship series on jw.

  the point was to have someone there to teach the members jw doctrine with the end goal of them being able to witness to them.

  4. after reading the scripture i would then ask, "if jesus said all authority has been given then does that not mean that he had power when he spoke this?

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  drew sagan

  Discussing the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses usually is something that proves to be more frustrating that fruitful.

  OTOH I do believe there are ways to challenge a Jehovah's Witness that are much better than Bible battles.

  My suggestion is that if you really want to work on a JW learn about what I call their "truths, only to be learned by the faithful".

  Let me give you an example. I went to a door one time while I was JW and left a require brochure. A few weeks later I stopped back to see how the man who took it liked it. He said it was ok, but when it said stuff about the date 1914 he threw it away. He thought that was made up and wanted proof for it, and also stated that he felt I couldn't offer that proof. I fumbled around a bit and could not explain the doctrine. I was embarassed. He made the point to let me know that if I couldn't explain it then why did I believe it?

  JWs don't expect to have to defend things like their divine selection in 1918, the 1914 chronology, and other things. I would suggest this simple lines of questioning:
  
  householder: I heard of Jehovah's Witnesses before. Arn't you the religion that teaches that Jesus Christ chose your leadership in 1918?

  JW: uhhhhhh yes

  householder: Yeah I thought that JWs believed that. I was wondering if you could give me the facts that led you to the conclusion that Jesus Christ actually did come down from heaven and choose your religion. Do you have those handy

  JW: Not at the moment, but I can bring them back for you.

  If you start to respectfully ask quesitons about such teachings they will not totally feel threatened but will want to go home and come back with info. I would suggest that you actualy make an appointment with them the following week to bring back their 'evidence'. It is easy to dismiss it.

  All the while you must act like you are a potential convert and not just somebody who wants to be criticial. Your main goal should not be to convert the JW to a differant theology but instead to simply shake up his world. view. JWs are allways in converstion mode and will keep coming back as long as they think they can convert you. The goal is to let the Watchtowers information to fail in converting you and not that person. You want to walk away from your conversations thinking "why God, why did you not give us enough informtaion to convert that nice man?" Those are the types of things that work on the mind of a JW.
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  6

  Disassociation Questions

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i disassociated myself a few months ago.

  i requested confirmation that they have received the letters.

  (i sent multiple copies) i also asked for details about the announcement.

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  drew sagan

  My guess is that they feel that since you dissassociated yourself they owe you nothing. I do not know internal Watchtower policy in regards to this issue, but I am going to assume that they just don't feel like responding to your inquiries. They don't have to do it, so they arn't going to bother.

  Another question. Will the elders ever try to contact me to see if I want to return or to tell me
  the procedure for returning? I know they do this kind of thing with DF persons, but I don't know if
  DA is different. I have no interest in ever returning, but I think it's outrageous that they would
  allow a longtime member leave without even telling them how they can return.

  I don't have access to it right now, but I believe that the Elders book states that once a year the elders are to call on disfellowshipped and disassociated ones. This is usually done around memorial time I believe. In this case I think the Elders would take into consideration who actually left the group and if they deserved a visit (they would most likely ignore a person who was very opposed or angry at them).